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User Info States Growing Hair On Their Pair in forum [Ticker]
Genesis
Posts: 66463
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
Royal Flush!
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http://market-ticker.org/archives/1573-S....

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I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife?
I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects
Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me
2009-11-03 08:34:17
Glasshammer
Posts: 52
Incept: 2009-09-02
Maryland
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Gen,

Do you think the states will back down if stimulus 2.0 comes to them around the time of mid-term elections?


2009-11-03 08:51:11
Curbyourrisk
Posts: 1617
Incept: 2008-08-19
Long Island, New York
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Maybe Stimulus 2.0 goes directly to the states, and not to the people after this. Kind of a pay-off to them to shut the hell up. Obama doesn't like being ****ed on....I am sure he doesn't want to see his plans go up in smoke.

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Hopium: hope filled delirium preached by the White House and Swallowed whole by the American Sheeple.

"We saved the world from disaster" - Ben Bernanke - Jackson Hole 08/21/2009
2009-11-03 09:04:57
Mangoelvis
Posts: 102
Incept: 2009-07-11

Las Vegas, NV
Online
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That was my exact thought. Stimulus 2 comes out next year just in time for elections and for states to "balance" their budgets. Incumbents will run on the "see how I saved jobs and schools" platform and hidden in the bill will be an agreement to stop prosecution of banksters.

The people will take the money, like always.

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Yo momma is so fat she farted on Old Faithful and caused a tsunami in China
2009-11-03 09:19:21
Snowman
Posts: 785
Incept: 2009-03-09
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good thing people get to vote and not companies.
I say bring on every lawsuit imaginable. Tie the bastards up in court forever. It will also take the clothes off of Obama and show everyone how he and his gang has been complicit.

2009-11-03 09:29:45
Widgeon
Posts: 5672
Incept: 2007-08-30

OK
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The "stimulus" in March went mainly to the states.

2009-11-03 09:33:38
Uppity_peasant
Posts: 151
Incept: 2009-06-26
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This article is why the states need to deal with the National Fraud Machine:

As More Abandon Mortgages, Foreclosure Crisis Could Deepen

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/ho....

Top of the Money section USA Toady this morning. Lots of good numbers in the article, but the point is that two homeowners that are underwater are bagging their houses, AND THE TAXES, AND THE UPKEEP. (An aside - Karl has pointed out before that the "recovery" is partly based on phony cash flow from people like this.)

One PA woman in the article stopped paying her $1400 mortgage in September 2008, and is living free in her house. The second, a NJ woman, stopped paying her $2400 mortgage recently.

If I was a Pennsylvania or New Jersey state official, my hair would be on fire after reading that article. I would be running through the offices screaming "WHERE IS THE MONEY GOING TO COME FROM?!?!?!"

Their only option is to claw back the cash from the crooks, and be damned to the Feds.

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Flounderizing America, one debtor at a time.

ObamBushOtter: "Hey, you ****ed up, Flounder - you trusted us!
2009-11-03 09:33:46
Cobradriver
Posts: 34
Incept: 2009-08-04
Port Charlotte,Fl
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Quote:
Frustrated by the banks’ inability or unwillingness to stop an avalanche of foreclosures, the states are considering lawsuits over the creation and marketing of millions of bad loans as well as the dismal pace of mortgage modifications.



So Sunday I was a little bored and went for a drive. I pulled up the MLS in my zip and saw right at 120 sfr/multi fam/condo/mfgd for sale. I stayed within my zip and in less than an hour found 60+ homes that are obviously empty but not listed in the MLS...These were only the obvious with tall grass,junk out front and lack of mait. The county is getting better at hiding the empties by mowing and keeping trash picked up. The banks ain't doing ****...

As a rough guess I would say there are at least as many unoccupied homes in limbo as are currently listed...

Chris





2009-11-03 09:35:43
Sangell
Posts: 15
Incept: 2009-08-16
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Its not like the states were not wetting their greedy beaks in this scam as well. Now that the bust has come and their tax revenue is collapsing their indignation and concern on behalf of the poor home loanowner is a bit ridiculous. They were happy as any mortgage broker to facilitate these transactions when it led to higher property taxes and transaction fees for their coffers.

2009-11-03 09:40:36
Glasshammer
Posts: 52
Incept: 2009-09-02
Maryland
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To me there are only 2 ways for the next stimiulus to go.

Stimulus is a tax credit:
If the taxpayers recieved roughly $500 in a tax credit we would likely put most if not all of it to paying debt.

Stimulus goes to the states:
The states sink the money into balancing the budget which provides a very temporary fix.

With the states badly in need of help I would wager they get the stimulus directly. This curtails anti-administration sentiment just long enough for the Democrats to maintain control. I don't think the states growing a pair is an issue because they will get paid not to take action. Any attourney general who sticks to his guns would likely find himself out of office.

I believe most of the stimulus would go to California, Florida, Illinois, New York, and New Jersey. Those are 5 of the 10 states that make 45% of our GDP which means they get priority. California, Florida, and Illinois are the top 3 in terms of GDP and New York/New Jersey are major financial centers. Not to mention New York is an easy place to sway opinion towards the administration. Keep in mind the burden of just 2 of those states going down creates a problem the other 40 can't hope to fix.

2009-11-03 09:59:56
Tdray
Posts: 93
Incept: 2008-12-11
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A "Puppy Mill" churn game has to be the best encapsulation of this whole sham. Even my nine year old would understand what was going on. Brilliant description!

2009-11-03 10:00:22
Statusquojoe
Posts: 2048
Incept: 2008-11-20
A True American Patriot!
Land of the fees Home of the slaves.
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That's it, the states need to assert their 10th Amendment rights. Its not like its an antiquated idea, the states have been exercising this right repeatedly in the 12 states that have passed the medical marijuana laws in direct conflict with the federal Controlled Substances Act and the Real ID Act that has been nullified by more than 20 states.

Quote:
In other words, whenever there comes a question of constitutional authority, Americans should refer as final arbiter, not to the Supreme Court or the federal government's inflated opinion of its own powers, but to the letter and spirit of the Constitution. If that fails, each party to this voluntary contract (read: the sovereign states) may decide for itself whether the terms of the agreement have been violated, and if so, what course of action to take.

http://www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/2009....


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"The value of a man's opinion, is the price he has paid to have it." Author unknown.
2009-11-03 10:07:55
Bogey
Posts: 651
Incept: 2008-03-12

Montana
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If it goes to the states in proportion to their budget deficits, then IMO you WILL see secession movements among those few who've been responsible. And yeah, we're the ones with the BTU's.

Last modified: 2009-11-03 10:17:40 by bogey

2009-11-03 10:14:59
Tesla
Posts: 7276
Incept: 2008-04-03
A True American Patriot!
Delaware
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They'd have to do any "stimulus" to the states before July 2010, as that's most states' fiscal year start.

I don't see CONgress willing to give out more taxpayer dough right before Nov 2010 in the middle of election season.

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"Neither the wisest Constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt." Samuel Adams

I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees. - Emiliano Zapata
2009-11-03 10:16:36
Mortgageguymn
Posts: 140
Incept: 2009-03-09
North Coast
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I don't think it matters if the states are successful in suing banks. So they sue Wells or BA for the loans they took on from Wachovia or Countrywide. The worser BA or WF get, the more bailey-outy they get. The longer the federal government keeps the interest spread huge so that banks can "earn" their way out of their insolvency. Or the feds just give more money directly to the banks. Either way it comes from J6P in the form of a bigger spread paid the banks or higher (eventual) taxes to pay for cash infusions to banks.

In fact, I would argue that some states are more hosed now than others in part because of their own instrinsic culture. A bartender in California who paid $800k for a house knew that it only made sense if values rose. If he could buy with minimum down, it was "heads I win, tails you lose". The flip side to being a boom town is being a bust town. It's two sides of the same coin. If states win such lawsuits, they will ultimately be paid not by the banks but by money shunted to the banks by the federal gov't (since the banks are "TBTF"). Why should people in more stable places (Texas, Boston, etc) have to pay disproportionately to bail out CA, NV & FL when it was the CA, NV & FL boomtown mentaity in part that caused their own problems? They made their bed, now let them sleep in it.

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"Neither a borrower nor a lender be." - Harold Hecuba
2009-11-03 10:53:06
2banana
Posts: 84
Incept: 2008-02-25
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"Two weeks ago, the House Financial Services Committee voted to give the federal government the power to block states from regulating large national banks in some circumstances. "

A democrat controlled Financial Services Committee in a democrat controlled congress...

2009-11-03 11:04:23
Eaglewwit
Posts: 1459
Incept: 2007-11-30
SoCal
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Real Estate agents are mostly morons, and Mortgage Brokers are mostly idiotic.

During the boom times most Mortgage bankers wouldn't know how to use an HP financial calculator. These people were snake oil salesman. All they knew was that they got paid if someone got a loan, and they didn't care about anything else. Of course then the question gets back to the banks who should have cared who they were giving mortgages to, but we all know how that one ended.

As far as I am concerned Mortgage brokers and Real Estate agents should be on the list for clawbacks as well. However I fear that the job would be too large.

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"Not even I imagined we would see trillions of dollars being created and given to the culprits as a means of allegedly "saving" the system. This is not mere Keynesianism; it is Keynesianism on steroids and crystal meth."
2009-11-03 11:54:27
Frat
Posts: 86
Incept: 2009-07-15
NKY
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A cute little story about 10th Amendment rights here in KY....


Back in March, I got interested in the possible secession movement, but most certainly in the assertation of the States' 10th Amendment rights. Specifically, we're talking about the wonderful Commonwealth of Kentucky. I did the research, found the proposal, and dutifully emailed my State Rep as to her stance on this issue. She agreed the Fed.gov has gotten way too big for it's own good, and said she'd look to possibly co-sponsor the bill. Well, I lost my job in May and forgot about it until recently. Upon checking last night, sure as **** my Rep IS now a co-sponsor. It might not have teeth, but it's the kind of thing I like to see from someone representing my interests. She will definitely be receiving support from my family, and hopefully the resolution will go somewhere. If not, we'll look to some other, less completely-surrounded states.

I'm talking about YOU, Texas and Montana.

2009-11-03 14:08:22
Mblomquist
Posts: 27
Incept: 2009-01-09
Los Gatos
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Karl,

Some of the courts do hold agents to their fiduciary duties, but very few. Ironically, when they do clean hands is not an issue for the borrower.

Below are two interesting rulings, but first the scenario. Elderly retired woman applies with World Savings to purchase a $450,000 home with 20% down payment.

Her income was only $1,500 per month; barely enough to qualify for the property taxes. World Savings hits her with a large prepayment penalty so when she goes to cash out or sell World receives a nice parting gift.

Before we even address the issue of income fraud the woman has committed loan fraud by misrepresenting occupancy; the home was not for her it was for her son.

In any event, World Savings goes about its business with no consequences, but within a year the woman needs cash out because her and her son can't make the minimum pick a payments.

Woman is contacted by a broker who inflates her income by over 500% and increases her purchase money loan by appx $40k. She now has a bit more cash to make "home improvements" aka afford the home for another year.

Here is a copy of the ruling against the broker for failing to disclose the World Savings prepayment penalty (fiduciary breach) and RESPA violations aka making more than they deserved to on the loan.

It should be noted that nothing was pled by Plaintiff's counsel about fiduciary breach for loan fraud because borrower was at a minimum aiding and abetting that crime.

In the end the damages to the broker for his agent's failure to disclose the prepayment penalty (fiduciary breach),etc. was $39,927.21. Plaintiff's counsel also won attorney's fees which totaled $163,528.75.

The ruling against the broker for the actions of his agent are available at,

http://www.michaelblomquist.com/CaseFoge....

and the court’s opinion on legal fees are available at,

http://www.michaelblomquist.com/CaseFoge....

2009-11-03 17:04:16
Joe-bob
Posts: 1548
Incept: 2007-09-18
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This is an interesting letter: http://banking.senate.gov/docs/reports/p....


Letter from John D. Hawke, Jr., Comptroller of the Currency

Quote:

May 5, 2000



The Honorable Phil Gramm
Chairman
Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs
United States Senate
Washington, D.C. 20510-6075


Dear Chairman Gramm:

This is in response to your letter dated April 12, 2000. In your letter, you note that many news stories have reported an increasing regulatory concern over "predatory lending." In order for the Committee to understand this term, you have asked the OCC to provide its definition of "predatory lending" and all data that the OCC has regarding "predatory lending."

1. Definition of "Predatory Lending."

With respect to your first request, OCC does not have a formal definition of "predatory lending," and I am concerned that attempting to define this term risks either over- or under-inclusiveness. However, while we have not defined "predatory lending," we are aware that over the past few years, many practices have been identified as abusive or predatory in Congressional hearings and federal agency reports.

For example, during the 1993 Congressional hearings that led to the passage of the Home Ownership Equity Protection Act of 1994 ("HOEPA"), witnesses were particularly concerned about "abusive" practices that result in equity "stripping" or "skimming" (such as making home-secured loans to borrowers without an ability to repay the loan).1 Subsequent hearings by the Senate's Special Committee on Aging in 1998 identified the following as "predatory" lending practices affecting the elderly: equity "stripping," "flipping" 2 and "packing," 3 steering borrowers to high cost lenders, falsifying loan applications, and abusive collection practices.4 Finally, in 1998, the Federal Reserve Board and the Department of Housing and Urban Development ("HUD") issued their Joint Report to the Congress Concerning Reform to the Truth in Lending Act and the Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (the "Federal Reserve-HUD Report"). In developing the Federal Reserve-HUD Report, the Federal Reserve Board held hearings to assess HOEPA's effectiveness in combating abusive lending practices. The report identifies several lending practices as predatory and abusive, including forging signatures or obtaining signatures on blank documents, falsifying loan applicants' income or the appraised value of the property, "manipulat[ing] a borrower into accepting an exorbitantly- priced" loan, and most of the practices criticized in the 1993 and 1998 Congressional hearings.

One problem with the fact that "predatory lending" is not susceptible to precise definition is that many people make the mistake of equating subprime lending to predatory lending. Responsible, risk-based subprime lending, that provides access to credit for individuals with less than perfect credit histories, should not, in and of itself, be considered predatory. The OCC encourages national banks to engage in responsible subprime lending, and has issued guidance to ensure that banks engaging in this type of business do so in a safe and sound manner and consistent with applicable consumer protection law.

2. Data on Predatory Lending.

In response to your second request, the OCC has not independently collected or internally analyzed any specific data regarding lending that would be considered "predatory." Assuming that it would be feasible to define the concept precisely, it would be a difficult undertaking for OCC to gather data on predatory lending. The type of lending that is characterized as predatory does not appear to be done to any perceptible degree by national banks, and information about unregulated lenders that may engage in these practices is not available to the OCC as part of its supervisory activities. Further, as noted above, subprime lending is not necessarily "predatory." Consequently, reports about increases in subprime lending may not support a conclusion that there have been corresponding increases in predatory lending.

While the scope of the problem of predatory lending is not clear and the available data is primarily anecdotal, it has nevertheless been sufficient to prompt actions to curb predatory lending. Congress enacted HOEPA to protect consumers from abusive lending practices in home equity loan transactions in response to evidence that abusive loans were being made to elderly and unsophisticated borrowers. The Federal Reserve-HUD Report stated that, despite the enactment of HOEPA, "[a]busive practices continue to exist in some segments of the home-equity lending market, demonstrating the need for additional protections. 5 The Federal Reserve-HUD Report recommends expanding HOEPA to address several practices that the agencies considered abusive. As you know, there are several bills pending in Congress that would expand HOEPA to address these practices.

Further, there are efforts in the secondary mortgage market to curtail the existence of predatory practices by limiting the marketability of certain loans. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac recently announced that they will not purchase mortgages that are made without regard to the borrower's ability to repay the loan or with features such as prepaid single premium credit insurance. Finally, HUD and the Department of Treasury recently established a task force on predatory lending practices that will hold public forums around the country to assist the agencies in gathering information about the scope of the concerns that have been raised.

Through our supervision, we seek to ensure compliance with the fair lending and consumer protection laws and the continued safe and sound operation of our banks. In particular, we believe it would be a fundamentally unsound banking practice to extend credit under circumstances where a bank had no reasonable expectation that a loan could be repaid by the borrower without recourse to liquidating the collateral. While I have no reason to believe that national banks are involved in predatory lending, it is important for the OCC to understand the issues relating to such lending and to use our supervisory authority appropriately so that national banks and their subsidiaries avoid the legal and reputational risks connected with such practices.

Thank you for this opportunity to comment on this important issue. I hope this information is helpful to you and the Committee.

Sincerely,

John D. Hawke, Jr.
Comptroller of the Currency


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écrasez l'infâme -Voltaire

To punish the oppressors of humanity is clemency; to forgive them is barbarity. —Robespierre

2009-11-03 18:06:28
Mdporter
Posts: 57
Incept: 2008-02-26
San Jose, CA
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California, Florida, and Arizona are the states suffering from a lack of property tax revenue. The CA budget has been devastated by property taxes either not collected, or assessments declining due to the RE crash. Cities and Counties here are all hurting over the lack of tax revenue.

Yet they all let the fraud happen, because their tax roles were swelling every year. It's been fun watching northern california cities scratch their heads, wondering where to get money from. JQ Taxpayer certainly doesn't have it.

The only thing that ****es me off more in this fiasco is that people are living for free in homes that they don't own and can't pay for, because the banks won't throw them into the streets where they belong. I'd like to be able to buy a home that I can afford. All the extend and pretend tactics mean I must find more and more patience.

2009-11-03 22:52:11
Reverseengineer
Posts: 280
Incept: 2009-08-19
Alaska
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Quote:
Stimulus is a tax credit:
If the taxpayers recieved roughly $500 in a tax credit we would likely put most if not all of it to paying debt.


$500? This is a Joke. $500 doesn't even pay a month's rent in a cheap apartment, its going nowhere to resolve the problem of people month's ehind on mortgages costing $1500 ad more a month.

What local counties and states need to do is simply repo properties currently held by the Banks for unpaid taxes. You KNOW the Banks aren't paying the Property Taxes on said properties, they got no cash flow to do that. Then the states simply auction off these properties for whatever they will bring in, that should be at least a couple of years worth of tax on the property. This solves the cash crunch for the state, and drops the whole loss of principal onto the banks when the property is repoed. Very simple, and quite legal far as I can tell.

RE

2009-11-04 02:34:23
Yazooflesh
Posts: 2190
Incept: 2007-08-02
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States don't have balls...they have been castrated by the Feds! States Rights? Fugetaboutit...

Never forget that Federal Law supercedes State Law through the Congress and/or the Supreme Court.

Therefore I ask, what the hell is the purpose of "States" these days?

Are our "States" just another illusory pacifier?

Last modified: 2009-11-04 05:03:54 by yazooflesh

2009-11-04 04:19:43
Laura
Posts: 2663
Incept: 2008-05-05
A True American Patriot!
Florida Space Coast
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I suspect it is different depending on the state. There's too much money funneled through the Federal government to the states to support Federal programs, earmarks and similar arrangements for total independence. I think we are going to find out.

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We will have to fight this monster to the death or agree to live under its rule as slaves, in the most literal sense of the word. Honey, where's the AK ? Tyler Durden

all sovereigns devalue the currency - all times, all places, no exceptions ME
2009-11-04 05:23:27
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