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| User Info | More On Secession: Did It Already Happen? in forum [Ticker] | |||
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Genesis Posts: 71435 Incept: 2007-06-26 
KD^2 
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http://market-ticker.org/archives/1506-M....
---------- "The monetary base in ALL modern monetary systems is the sum of unencumbered assets against which one is both WILLING AND ABLE to borrow." - Me
2009-10-12 10:06:22
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Widgeon Posts: 6529 Incept: 2007-08-30 
OK Online
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That's some good stuff. It is over. What follows isn't known.
2009-10-12 10:11:51
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Uppity_peasant Posts: 301 Incept: 2009-06-26 Online
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You appear to have threaded the needle. I've seen a lot of forums, Left & Right, go nuts over the secession question. No one ever synthesized the "fait accompli" criminality of our governing classes into the argument. ---------- ===== Take your red pill daily @ The Market Ticker, with your host Karl "Morpheus" Denninger Last modified:
2009-10-12 10:18:32 by uppity_peasant
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Rbarreira Posts: 1434 Incept: 2009-05-27 Sweden
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The logistics of a "hostile" (meaning unilateral rather than violent) secession are mind-boggling, given how fragile and interconnected today's societies are. It would take years for a single state to even plan the preparation for social, financial and energetic dependency (if it's even possible).
2009-10-12 10:20:00
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Mikeit83 Posts: 265 Incept: 2009-06-19 East Coast
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Rbarreira- It would take MONTHS. No one said it would be smooth- no one said there wouldnt be a swarm of people leaving or entering the said state. But it could happen in a very short amount of time- as long as you had a moral and just local government spearheading the initiative. Founding Father principles (100%) or bust... its not a buffet line. Gen- thanks for the new ticker- I had a sneaky feeling it would be here sometime this morning.
2009-10-12 10:30:52
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Uppity_peasant Posts: 301 Incept: 2009-06-26 Online
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Rbarreira - I think KD is saying that Fraud Street and Greedington, DC are playing "extend and pretend" with the Constitution, too. They've abrogated the terms of the agreement, but are pretending that they haven't, and are using their media machine to keep everybody asleep about it. ---------- ===== Take your red pill daily @ The Market Ticker, with your host Karl "Morpheus" Denninger
2009-10-12 10:32:41
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Rbarreira Posts: 1434 Incept: 2009-05-27 Sweden
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Mikeit83 do you really think it would take months to prepare the state for defense against intrusions from the federal government and other states? What about electricity... which states could go off the electrical grid without being plunged into darkness? What about oil? The landlocked states wouldn't be able to get any, the other ones would surely get attacked if they attempted to hold back imported energy for themselves. Does anyone seriously think secession is anything but a theoretical wet dream at this point?
2009-10-12 10:42:11
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Margincalltime Posts: 830 Incept: 2008-04-01
NJ
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There's been secession alright, the few have seceded with the loot of the many
2009-10-12 10:44:29
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Samadams Posts: 358 Incept: 2008-12-03 
San Antonio, TX
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As to the legal justification, as Karl noted it appears here: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." As documented here at TF and in many, many other places, government HAS become "destructive of these ends" and has also ceased to care about or obtain "the consent of the governed." I'd argue that the social contract embodied in the Constitution has already been broken (probably beyond repair), and that Karl is correct in saying that the nation we all thought we belonged to doesn't exist anymore. Of course, legal or not, there's the precedent of the unpleasantness of the early 1860s to show the difficulties involves. However, as a Texan (by choice - I left the dark and fascist Peoples Democratic Republic of New Jersey some 9 years ago) I am heartened by the fact that we have our own electrical grid, we are a large oil exporter, we manufacture about 50% of the chemicals made in the US within a few miles of the Houston ship channel, we have meat and food in far greater quantities than needed to feed ourselves, we have access to the water (for fishing and tourism) and we have some 40 million guns and LOTS of people who know how to use them. We also run a net deficit with the Fed.gov, so if we split off we could lower overall taxes for our people and still get the same level of services. Of course, I'd expect a lot of people to leave (those who vote for Sheila Jackson Lee and similar folk - and don't let the door hit y'all in the ass), and many to come here from oppressed areas of the (formerly) United States. We'll take all that want to come - the hard workers, the lovers of liberty, the armed - and we'll prosper. I'm sure that Oklahoma (with a lot of oil all its own) and several other neighboring states would come along for the ride. So, when does the Texan Republic start?
2009-10-12 10:46:02
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Daveincsa Posts: 133 Incept: 2009-01-25 In the South
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It's a wet dream I will continue to enjoy having!! Seriously if liberals want Big Government involved in every area of their lives they can have it, in their OWN COUNTRY. I endorse "The Great Divorce" that some liberals and conservatives have advocated. I wonder what would happen if we had a financial collapse that led to the collapse of the Federal Government. Would some states consider leaving and forming up something else of self-preservation? Disclosure: Not a League of the South member but I'm probably a Neo-Confederate.
2009-10-12 10:50:56
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Uppity_peasant Posts: 301 Incept: 2009-06-26 Online
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Karl wrote: Is it "merely" a conglomeration of 50 alleged "States", or is it the bargain struck between each of those 50 States and The Federal Government. Specifically: Section 4. The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government, and shall protect each of them against invasion; An official policy of "all illegal immigrants are welcome to come and loot our Treasury and people" is contrary to these requirements, and a Republican Form of Government requires actual representative government - not purchased, bribed legislators. ===================================== Actually, it has been my contention since just before the November 2008 election, when it was clear that there was going to be one-part sweep, that "politics was over". I said this because it was clear to me that the new majority in DC was going to ram the illegals in this country down everyone's throat in order to create a new 50-year base of power, discarding the old minority at the base of their current coalition like so much used toilet paper. Now, I predicted this in November 2008. The behavior of the Greedington DC elites SINCE that date merely confirms my belief - times 100. They'll get around to it BEFORE the 2010 elections, and in plenty of time to indoctrinate their new base via their media machine. It'll be passed in the middle of the night, and we the peasants of the United States of America be lucky if it's even written before Obama signs it. I never got involved in the illegal immigration food fights on my old site, because it was just a lot of yelling from both sides. However, I see how your synthesis can be used to cut the Gordian Knot on this issue. We already know that Fraud Street and Washington DC have seceded. Running roughshod over the domestic peasantry to create a new voter base of illegals will be their Fort Sumter. Let the warnings begin. ---------- ===== Take your red pill daily @ The Market Ticker, with your host Karl "Morpheus" Denninger
2009-10-12 10:52:24
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Samadams Posts: 358 Incept: 2008-12-03
San Antonio, TX
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Rbarreira said, "What about electricity... which states could go off the electrical grid without being plunged into darkness? What about oil? The landlocked states wouldn't be able to get any, the other ones would surely get attacked if they attempted to hold back imported energy for themselves." Texas...and I'm sure that it is not beyond the technical expertise of the power industry to extend our electrical network to other states. As for oil, we export it. If combined with Oklahoma (which, for all of the jokes we tell at each others' expense is a very, very similar state in attitude), we could supply many other neighboring states with oil. Colorado and Wyoming also have lots of shale deposits, and once freed of the shackles imposed by the EPA and the Gaia-worshippers in DC, this fantastic resource could be developed without much delay. Is secession a "wet dream?" Maybe - but at some point the federal government will fail. I'd argue that it already largely HAS, but it simply hasn't been noticed by most people. When it becomes painfully obvious, that is when this talk will become much more serious among the states. I really hope and pray that this never occurs - that those on the federal level wake the **** up and start governing according to the Constitution and those laws which are Constitutional (not the ones passed for their convenience), so that we can actually once again become the nation that our forefathers (or, in my case, my actual father, age 76) would recognize. Ask yourself what the Founding Generation would think of this nation. Ask yourself if what King George was doing to us was really worse than what we're doing to ourselves. Last modified:
2009-10-12 10:59:15 by samadams
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Uppity_peasant Posts: 301 Incept: 2009-06-26 Online
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Rbarreira wrote: "Does anyone seriously think secession is anything but a theoretical wet dream at this point?" Dude - did you read the article? ---------- ===== Take your red pill daily @ The Market Ticker, with your host Karl "Morpheus" Denninger
2009-10-12 10:54:43
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Karlmarxghost Posts: 2641 Incept: 2009-01-26
Stealing Your Property
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 And the crowd goes WILD!!!! I think this should be sent to our elected representatives so THEY can ponder this question. ---------- My views are my view and mine alone. Karl or ticker forum does not endorse or necessarily agree with my views. DO not trade on my views or take them personally.
2009-10-12 10:55:47
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Photopro Posts: 372 Incept: 2008-03-18
Republic of Texas - got .308? Online
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Is this why Washington Breaks the Law with impunity? From they're side the "Law" no longer exists, they are no longer bound by it.
---------- It is very dangerous to be right when the government is wrong. — Voltaire http://www.RxSaveMoney.com
2009-10-12 10:56:31
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Mikeit83 Posts: 265 Incept: 2009-06-19 East Coast
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RB- Yes- "Planning" infrastructure in states that wish to secede is equivalent to kicking the can like we do now. It will do nothing but hurt the chances. Texas is a MUST (as I stated in another thread way before Sam Adams made his post.) Without Texas- there isnt a hope in the world. I also stated that Oklahoma is a "shoe in" if texas leaves. Even though UT and OU dont get along- they will for this cause. ;) Texas is its own self sustaining country. What they lack now they can overcome with the influx of hard, gun owning, liberty loving people that will flock to the state in droves. First priority- build a fence along the Mexican border. 2nd- Run the lefties out of Austin ;) 3rd- Debate on who is with us and who is against us- build a fence around the states that secede and have entry points for those that come to the states for the right reasons. Texas (any many southern stateS) have large amounts of National Guard units. There is also quite a bit of Fed funded military assets there. This doesnt have to be bloody- just each party goes its separate ways. If you dont want us to go, then you bloody damn well listen to our grievances and stop the corruption right now.
2009-10-12 10:57:21
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Snowman Posts: 1040 Incept: 2009-03-09
avoiding yellow snow
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Unfortunately, very much so, I don't see secession happening. Quite the opposite. During economic misery, governments and financial power tend to become very centralized. States can't fend for themselves (Texans excluded...) because they don't have the muscle and size. They become more dependent on a central government. Central government becomes even more dependent on centralized capital. When the going gets tough you don't want to deal with 1,000 financial institutions, but 10 (deliberately reducing the number of banks is a whole other ticker topic...).
2009-10-12 10:58:18
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Rbarreira Posts: 1434 Incept: 2009-05-27 Sweden
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Quote:Dude - did you read the article? Yeah... where does it talk about any of the practical issues relating to a non-abstract secession? Last modified:
2009-10-12 10:59:40 by rbarreira
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Samadams Posts: 358 Incept: 2008-12-03
San Antonio, TX
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"Yeah... where does it talk about any of the practical issues? " First you come up with an idea, then you worry about how to accomplish it. Texas being on its own grid and being more than self-sufficient in energy and food production, plus having a large population of independent, liberty-minded people with arms and military training, is THE natural base for a new nation along the lines envisioned by the Founders. If you make it, they will come.
2009-10-12 11:02:49
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Winstonsmith2009 Posts: 71 Incept: 2009-08-05
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"What Defines America?" Is it a defined political hierarchy centered in Washington DC? Yes and that has been the case for a very long time. Is it a symbol (e.g. the flag)? Yes, something to symbolize the sort of country people imagine still exists, but does not. Is it an organized looting operation centered in NYC and Washington DC? Yes and that has been the case for a very long time. Is it "merely" a conglomeration of 50 alleged "States"? Yes and that has been the case for a very long time. Is The Fed and Treasury's explicit and declared policy of dollar devaluation, which is exactly what "Quantitative Easing" (aka "monetization") is, lawful? Doesn't matter. See above. At high levels of money and power, we are a nation of men, not laws and that has been the case for a very long time. Is not The Constitution (as properly amended) a Contract between the people, the States and The Federal Government? Effectively doesn't matter. See above. Does America, bound and defined by The Constitution with the rights and duties of each party defined, still exist, or has Washington DC and Wall Street already seceded over the previous two decades? No and that has been the case for a very long time. Distracted by their bread and circuses, dumbed down by schools that do not cover economic and political matters in sufficient detail (and/or accuracy) and blinded by a corporate media that no longer operates as the forth estate and which tries to attain greater market share by telling people what they want to hear in their “news,” most people haven’t a clue about what is actually going on. Is this, in point of fact, not the root of the problems we now face in our economy and nation, whether they be runaway debt, financial frauds perpetrated upon the people, the counties and states, or blatantly-fraudulent entitlement promises that are mathematically impossible to sustain? Yes. But until the bread is depleted and the circuses leave town, the masses won’t get their asses off their sofas. And by the time they do, it will be far too late. Then something will happen but, in the end, the same sort of oligarchic system will eventually evolve. It has been that way throughout history. Last modified:
2009-10-12 11:05:22 by winstonsmith2009
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Rbarreira Posts: 1434 Incept: 2009-05-27 Sweden
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Texas makes sense, I'll give you that.
2009-10-12 11:06:23
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Kuhio Posts: 206 Incept: 2008-12-31
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Karl, Barney Frank's admission that it was official US policy to, in essence, dictate & direct our entire economic system based on the unsustainable model of rising home equity driven personal consumption, was my last straw. The truth was finally out - the actions we've been seeing haven't been directed at just trying to save the banking system and Wall St insiders, it was a total national commitment (no different, really than WWII), using the full resources of the state, to drive the home ATM economic system. In fact, it was a full admission that we as a nation cannot do anything other than what we were doing. We can't change; we can't adapt. The Chinese must produce and we must consume. They must lend and we must go into debt. I let that realization sink in over the weekend. I swore I'd stop reading your blog since I thought you didn't get it - you were still focused on the quaint notion of law (ie the Constitution). But here I am checking back in, and surprise surprise, you do get it! I think that as others begin to wake up to the fact that the US is fully invested, and is betting its very future, on a model that simply cannot be sustained is going to be a shock.
2009-10-12 11:07:19
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Otiswild Posts: 1341 Incept: 2009-03-09
Teegeeack
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BTW, I'd recommend Tom Kratman's _A State of Disobedience_ for a what-if scenario involving the secession of TX.. http://www.amazon.com/State-Disobedience.... ---------- It appears that the yard wolves has grown up. Are we finally finished with the colds dead winters?
2009-10-12 11:08:29
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Snowman Posts: 1040 Incept: 2009-03-09
avoiding yellow snow
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Samadams: Could you carry your thoughts forward and explain the implications of a Texan secession? Just a thought experiment. I'm interested in how it would work (having lived in Houston way back when can I get a visitor's visa?) - - Will you issue your own currency and have your own monetary system (you may want to think this one through a bit...) and if so what type of interest rate policy would you go for? - Would I need a passport to enter your country? - How would you provide for a military (rent the US armed forces?) and would you have nuclear defense system and if so how would you afford it? - If I buy some really good Texan steaks from my house in Va, will you charge me a customs fee or will there be free trade without any duties?
2009-10-12 11:12:19
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Godot Posts: 363 Incept: 2008-03-03
Oz
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The silent coup defined and exposed. Beautiful.
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2009-10-12 11:13:43
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