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User Info Mass Mortgage Fraud Is Coming Back? in forum [Ticker]
Genesis
Posts: 66463
Incept: 2007-06-26
A True American Patriot!
Royal Flush!
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http://market-ticker.org/archives/1199-M....

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I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife?
I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects
Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me
2009-07-09 15:03:13
Bigcat
Posts: 1523
Incept: 2008-09-10

Nice, France
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This is at the core of the issue. By providing this type of credit, the banks have unwittingly led the masses toward a lender's greatest fear:

that it become socially acceptable to walk way and/or go bankrupt.

Expect a heavy media campaign to guard against this banking nightmare. We've already read in the nyt that a lawyer couldn't get into the bar due to credit record. Expect more of the same.

That said, the behavior of the credit-offering system has been so predatory and egregious, I believe it will not work.

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"When the goal shifts to simple survival for the Fed their goals will change drastically and their strategy will adjust accordingly...Like Congress, the Fed will throw its "allies" under the bus when they become a political liability. Look at Mozillo now! " Sushihorn, 07/09
2009-07-09 15:10:43
Widgeon
Posts: 5671
Incept: 2007-08-30

OK
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I don't think "unwittingly." I think they expect(ed) that, in the breech, the gov't will/would use every capability at its disposal to either 1) make the banks whole, 2) force the borrowers to pay (servitude). Certainly we've seen many moves in those two directions over the past few years.

They don't care about the morals ... only the $.

2009-07-09 15:15:12
Raingod
Posts: 946
Incept: 2008-08-29

Tastes Like Chicken
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Dude, it's a press release from a Realtor(TM). How do you know when a Realtor(TM) is lying? Her lips are moving.

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I have even intermittenter access than I did over the summer. No idea when I can check in.
2009-07-09 15:20:34
Mtgspy
Posts: 5860
Incept: 2007-10-27
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Most common argument is that disclosing asset/earnings will hurt small business (particularly of the minorities) who would then if got into trouble with IRS will release hordes of unemployed illegals into the streets of LA. It's not totally inaccurate picture of the situation. Then the next argument is that there is a "risk-based" pricing from Freddie and Fannie anyway so all is fine.

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You kill them all! - Genesis
2009-07-09 15:21:22
Centurion
Posts: 76
Incept: 2009-05-14
DFW
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Quote:
that it become socially acceptable to walk way and/or go bankrupt.


People used to look down on other people with bad credit. Now, they just figure it's a product of the economy.

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- If you're not being shot at, it's not a high stress job.
- The right to self-defence is THE basic human right.
- No, I don't know everything .... I'm just REALLY good with Google.
- Trying not to be a tinfoil guy. But can you really blame me after the actions of Fed & Treas?
2009-07-09 15:22:08
Mtgspy
Posts: 5860
Incept: 2007-10-27
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"How do you know when a Realtor(TM) is lying? Her lips are moving. "

Lying or kneeling.

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You kill them all! - Genesis
2009-07-09 15:22:27
Yanno
Posts: 487
Incept: 2008-02-07
London
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Quote:
Nationwide offers 125% mortgage

The Nationwide Building Society has introduced a mortgage allowing borrowers to take loans worth 125% of the value of the home they are buying.


What's the date on this article?

2006? 2007?

Uh - it's July 9, 2009.

Quote:
It will only be available to existing customers in negative equity who want to move house.

Negative equity means that the value of someone's home is less than the amount they owe on their mortgage.

Nationwide said the deal was a very "niche offer" and that not everyone in negative equity would qualify.

The Financial Services Authority is considering limiting mortgage loans to 100% of a property's value.

'No more risk'

The Nationwide only offers new customers mortgages worth 85% of the value of the home they want to buy.

Under its new arrangement, existing borrowers would take out a loan for 95% of the value of their new house at a fixed rate of 6.73% for three years or 7.48% for five years.

They would have to put down a 5% deposit from their own funds.

They would then be able to add on the negative equity from their old home, up to another 25% of the value of the new property, at a higher fixed rate of 7.23% for three years or 7.98% for five years.

As well as having their incomes and outgoings assessed by Nationwide, borrowers will also have to pass a stress test.

This will ensure they can still afford the mortgage repayments if interest rates have risen to 9% or 10% once the fixed-rate element of the loan has expired.

No takers yet

A Nationwide spokeswoman said although the deal was first made available in June, it was not being actively marketed.

So far none of its customers have taken up the offer.

It was, the spokeswoman said, aimed at helping only a few existing customers who came to the society and asked for help because they found they were in negative equity but were being forced to move house.

"Borrowers in these unique circumstances are simply able to transfer part of their existing negative equity with them when they need to move home - the actual value of the negative equity and the loan-to-value will reduce in all circumstances," she said.

"The borrowers have to meet our own affordability criteria," she added.

Wrong again?

There has been much criticism of the loans above 100% that were available at the peak of the housing boom, which immediately placed borrowers in negative equity.

The most notorious were those offered by the now nationalised Northern Rock bank.

The Nationwide's deal was a "really consumer-friendly move" said Ray Boulger at mortgage broker John Charcol .

He added that at least two other major lenders were looking at introducing something similar for existing customers.

But financial planner Jonathan Davis, of Armstrong Davis, said the building society's new policy was a "joke", and that it exposed the lender to further losses if house prices continued to fall.

"You are taking people in negative equity, pushing more money down their throat to back an asset that is still going down in value," he said.

"All the banks and building societies thought they were going to get their money back when they lent gargantuan sums in the run-up to 2007 - they were clearly wrong then and they are wrong again," he added.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8141....

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"Paulson's press conference was just a polite way of informing the American people that the seat of power has shifted from Washington to Wall Street. It's a banker's coup." Mike Whitney
"Do not rejoice in his defeat, you men. For though the world has stood up and stopped the bastard, the bitch that b
2009-07-09 15:22:33
Wontbackdown
Posts: 2077
Incept: 2007-09-20
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delete already posted

Last modified: 2009-07-09 15:24:04 by wontbackdown

2009-07-09 15:22:36
Micronin127
Posts: 493
Incept: 2008-01-21

Swampscott, MA
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Couldn't agree more that no-doc loans are at their core liars loans.

Why can't these people document their income? Why can't they provide 1040s for two years?

Are they lying to the bank about their income by overstating it OR are they lying to the IRS about their income to understate it?

I can see if a person has recently changed jobs from a regular job with a base salary to one that is predominantly commissions based or has started a business that they may not have enough history in their new career to reasonably estimate their earnings, but this means they are riskier borrowers because they are not seasoned in their new position.

"No doc loans should be illegal." - Karl Denninger

Completely agree.

2009-07-09 15:25:56
Thumpher
Posts: 15
Incept: 2009-06-04
Gainesville, Fl
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Just this week I started hearing commercials on the radio for reverse morgages again. Since the ad is bookended with John Commuta's transforming debt to wealth program and something offering newer, sexy toenails I figured it was sorta fraudulent.

So maybe there's a connection between the increasing push for these shady mortgage pruducts?

2009-07-09 15:28:26
Throxxofvron
Posts: 2246
Incept: 2009-02-17

The Land of Bilk & Money
Online
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As long as Fraudie and Phoney are swallowing the paper it's gonna be served up to 'em.

The value of the Property and the Buyer's ability to pay the Mortgage are totally irrelevant to Creatures that feed off of Securitizing this bull****.

Why would the Realtors and Bankers and Ratings Stampers bother to go looking for new jobs when .gov is gonna let Them all get back into stealing from the Public for a living?

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DIONYSUS: " Thou hast no knowledge of the life thou art leading; thy very existence is now a mystery to thee. " -from 'The Bacchantes' By Euripides

“During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.” -George Orwell

2009-07-09 15:35:43
Markd
Posts: 2
Incept: 2009-06-29
NH
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It could work so long as the sellers accept Cali's IOU's

2009-07-09 15:36:07
Dji
Posts: 554
Incept: 2009-04-21

orange park
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Sounds like Chris lost all his commission fees to me.
Know a few of these people and they are hurting bigtime.

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What goes up Must come Down- Alan Parsons Project
THE TRUTH HURTS! -Dji
2009-07-09 15:50:11
Jstanley01
Posts: 2332
Incept: 2008-07-30
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San Antonio, Texas
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Anecdote: I had to make a rare trip into the lobby of my bank yesterday. It's a local institution, but it had a monitor up running a visual ad for HELOCs. "Easy." "Convenient." "Affordable." Local or not, methinks it's time to look into banking at a different institution.

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Come on. It's just a ****ing casino. The markets have nothing to do with reality most of the times.. until they suddenly do... -- Peezdets
2009-07-09 16:13:51
Jbyer
Posts: 1657
Incept: 2009-01-10
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Irving, TX
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Is it just my computer, or is the font different for this ticker?

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Do you think Washington DC is full of criminals?
Do you want to do something about it?
http://www.tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/ak....
2009-07-09 16:22:08
Keewaydin
Posts: 1494
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Just a fleshwound!
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I noticed that too, Jbyer.

2009-07-09 16:23:18
2banana
Posts: 84
Incept: 2008-02-25
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No docs loans are for people who want to lie to get a mortgage. When banks held the mortgages they granted, you paid dearly for a no-doc loan (like double the interest plus crazy fees). They made absolutely no sense to anyone who was not lying.

2009-07-09 16:34:37
East2west
Posts: 220
Incept: 2009-03-03

California
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Great post. Cuts to the heart of the issue.

I'd love to see some data about what percentage of no-doc loans went to "people whose incomes are derived from investments or who are able to tax-shelter significant dollars."

That line alone made me laugh out loud.


2009-07-09 16:44:47
Mortgageguymn
Posts: 140
Incept: 2009-03-09
North Coast
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I would modify the perception of reduced doc loans only ever so slightly: 90% of all reduced doc loans (whether stated income, "No Ratio" or "No Doc") went to borrowers who were either lying on their tax returns or who didn't really qualify at all. 7% of reduced doc loans were done because both the loan officer and the borrower were too stupid and/or lazy to realize they qualified the normal "full-doc" way. 2% of reduced doc loans went to people who most commenters on this forum would think deserved to get the loan but wouldn't meet standard underwriting rules (ie, 40% down payment, self-employed only 5 months, but already making good money & highly likely to continue to earn good money).

The 2% does not justify the continued existence of these loan programs that mostly served to help people cheat on their taxes. Note: Federal Reserve guidelines that came into effect 18 months ago implemented a "documented reasonable ability to pay" standard that effectively killed off all Stated/No Ratio/No Doc loans, BUT... only for "high cost" (subprime) loans. As if the problem was subprime. As of yet, there is still no federal requirement for "documented reasonable ability to pay" as long as the interest rate charged the borrower is only slightly attrocious, not completely through the roof. And even the existing Federal Reserve guidelines that preclude reduced doc subprime loans are not statute and can be changed whenever the Fed sees fit to do so. The answer is for a federal "predatory lending law" akin to Minnesota's 2007 law (Ohio & other states have similar laws). While the term "predatory lending" wrong implies that borrowers weren't in on the fraud, the MN law was a good one. Barney Frank tried to pass a predatory lending law in 2007, but it floundered after the Fed claimed (falsely) to have fixed the problem.

Thankfully I don't think the secondary market for reduced doc loans will become reestablished for at least several years - by which time we can hope to have a federal prohibition. I pay my taxes. Everyone else should, too.

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"Neither a borrower nor a lender be." - Harold Hecuba
2009-07-09 16:58:24
Fugitivekind
Posts: 545
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Boston
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Can't say I agree entirely. I simply think that they should not allow these to be securitized. I have customers who are fantastic risks but cannot get a loan unless it is a no doc loan. For instance, I have a customer who quit his position as a CFO for a NYSE company. He has 3 million + in the bank. If a portfolio lender wants to lend him $500,000 to buy a property with a 50% ltv why not? They can price the risk.

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There's something very strange about issuing debt to solve a problem caused by too much debt - Governor Mark Sanford (R-SC)
2009-07-09 17:04:37
Trappped
Posts: 73
Incept: 2009-02-13
Banned
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The core of the problem is the US government and the corruption at the highest levels, including the Banks. As long as WE THE TAXPAYERS, are back stopping these banks, WITHOUT OUR CONSENT, they will continue to make these loans, throw common sense and risk out the window, AND COLLECT THIER BIG FAT FEES !!!
THE US citizen is being ****d every day as long as the US government continues on this moral hazardous path of bailing out everything that moves.

2009-07-09 17:06:27
Mortgageguymn
Posts: 140
Incept: 2009-03-09
North Coast
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PS, is it any surprise that it's the CA mortgage geeks & Realtors who are clamoring for the return of no docs? The entire state has had as its economic premise that low-moderate income people "should" be able to "afford" to live in attrociously expensive houses. The arithmetic won't sustain it, but they can't get their head around the fact that people buying houses for ten times their annual income is not ****ing normal. Even Michael Jackson went broke out there. Apologies to any normal people living in California - if there are any.

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"Neither a borrower nor a lender be." - Harold Hecuba
2009-07-09 17:08:15
Mortgageguymn
Posts: 140
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North Coast
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Fugitive,

You said "If a portfolio lender wants to lend him $500,000 to buy a property with a 50% ltv why not? They can price the risk. "

I used to think that, too. But I came to the conclusion that if that remains legal, then it HAS TO remain legal to talk Granny into mortgaging her paid off house using a stated income option ARM. And we came to see that that not only screwed Granny, but Granny's entire neighborhood. There's no good way to get rid of the predatory crap without also outlawing some seemingly acceptable loans. If that means a few people will have to pay cash or wait until they take a new job with documentable income, then that's the price that has to be paid in order to stop mass gaming of the system (and millions of people being able to cheat on their taxes and still get mortgage loans).

I might be willing to buy some meat that I know is on the verge of spoiling if it's cheap enough and I know I'm going to cook the living **** out of it in habanero chili. But we still have laws against grocers selling spoiled meat.

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"Neither a borrower nor a lender be." - Harold Hecuba
2009-07-09 17:22:15
Markytom
Posts: 179
Incept: 2009-02-19
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The FBI Mortgage Fraud Report came out for 2008.

http://www.fbi.gov/publications/fraud/mo....

This was concerning to me:

The FBI continues to foster relationships with representatives of the mortgage industry to promote mortgage fraud awareness and share intelligence information. FBI personnel routinely speak at and participate in various mortgage industry conferences and seminars, including those sponsored by the MBA.

Isn't that like the DEA fostering relationships and sharing intellegence with the Mexican drug cartel?

Last modified: 2009-07-09 17:27:09 by markytom

2009-07-09 17:23:49
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