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| User Info | ** Genesis Plan Now Known Workable ** in forum [Ticker] | ||||
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Genesis Posts: 66463 Incept: 2007-06-26 
Royal Flush! 
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http://market-ticker.denninger.net/archi....
---------- I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife? I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me Last modified:
2008-10-10 23:42:49 by genesis
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Maple Posts: 4091 Incept: 2007-09-03 
Southern California
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Typo alerts: Thread title That's all that matter If there is recover value 2008-10-10 23:43:40
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Aja Posts: 1956 Incept: 2008-03-19
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It's elegant, relatively simple, and it makes sense. I'll send it around. Appreciate your work. 2008-10-10 23:43:58
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Burtoby Posts: 498 Incept: 2007-10-28
Arlington,Tx
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Either "they" become transparent voluntarily, or Mr. Market destroys them. I would think long term thinkers would choose the "sc**** by" method. I guess there are no grownups in the room. Let's find some and vote them in. ---------- Tryin' to turn 6 figures into 7. 2008-10-10 23:44:36
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Rustbelt Posts: 82 Incept: 2008-02-10 the rustbelt
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Gen I must say ... even as a financial mental midget ... I can understand this process. It seems logical at face value. Which begs the question ... if a solution this simple could work ... why was it not presented by hank and ben in the first place? Were they waiting for the lehman debacle to play out? Or ... is there ulterior motives? Or .... is it the 'hope' that things will pan out positively over time so as not to wipe out a ton of equity holders at once? ---------- If ... if's and but's were candy and nuts ... we'd all be happy and fat ! 2008-10-11 00:07:31
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Aja Posts: 1956 Incept: 2008-03-19
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One moment, Gen. I just looked at the credit fixings website for this Lehman CDS settlement and it certainly looks to me as if they all bid on their own stuff. Why is that a success?
2008-10-11 00:42:56
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Dasweise Posts: 434 Incept: 2007-08-27
Germanton, N.C.
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I too am a financial midget but I can follow this process. Most problems are solved when someone decides "The Buck Stops Here". I believe NC 5th district congresswoman Foxx will consider this solution. I like the part of Play by the rules or you can't borrow from the discount window. 2008-10-11 00:45:47
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Genesis Posts: 66463 Incept: 2007-06-26
Royal Flush!
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Aja - what's wrong with buying back your own contracts?
---------- I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife? I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me 2008-10-11 00:47:22
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Aja Posts: 1956 Incept: 2008-03-19
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I don't know and really havent thought it through. What comes to mind is a foreclosure sale when bank bids, takes property for loan amount and then has to unload the property. Maybe for a CDS it doesnt matter.
2008-10-11 00:49:51
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Genesis Posts: 66463 Incept: 2007-06-26
Royal Flush!
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I sell you a PUT. I buy back the PUT (you sell it back to me) No harm, no foul. ---------- I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife? I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me 2008-10-11 00:50:40
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Aja Posts: 1956 Incept: 2008-03-19
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Then I don't get why the CDS settlements were so feared if that's all it is. Altho I guess they have to mark these to market now?
2008-10-11 00:55:15
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Genesis Posts: 66463 Incept: 2007-06-26
Royal Flush!
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They were afraid that it would result in FAILs and then new explosions. It didn't. Oops - another prediction down the ****ter. ---------- I used to play flute; I wonder if I can play a fife? I incite prosecutors to create "Bubba Sausage Parking Lot" projects Darrell Issa has a middle finger and knows how to use it - Me 2008-10-11 00:57:04
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Mtgspy Posts: 5860 Incept: 2007-10-27 
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Hey how come you call it Genesis plan? If a company fails the debt holder is the new equity owner. That is the law and it doesn't become invalid just because some doofus minister invalidated that with his action. What makes you think you invent this or maybe I am missing your contribution to the so-called Genesis plan? Thanks. ---------- You kill them all! - Genesis 2008-10-11 01:02:23
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Aja Posts: 1956 Incept: 2008-03-19
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Well gee they could just bid for their own crap for a penny on the dollar to prevent a fail. So now they bought their own crap back for 8 pennies. I'd think buying it yourself would be a fail since it appears there were no other bidders (but I myself can't tell from my look at the site -- maybe someone else can). Anyway thanks for the info and sorry I'm blockheaded . I'll do some more reading on the credit fixing site. Have a good weekend everyone 2008-10-11 01:02:44
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Mtgspy Posts: 5860 Incept: 2007-10-27
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A pays B $100 to protect A. B pays C $50 to protect A. C pays D $10 to protect A. D fails. Paulson thinks by annuling the C contract to D he can fix the $100 problem. No, he get $10 back - so far. And LEH is Z in this chain. Also, when you finally get to cannibalizing B, and gave A back his $100, then it IS time to ask A if his problem is more or less than $100. You can guess what that number is. Suppose it's $120, and you say ok, here's $20 courtesy of taxpayer - who do you go buy insurance from this time? ---------- You kill them all! - Genesis Last modified:
2008-10-11 01:09:49 by mtgspy
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Jinxx0r Posts: 2019 Incept: 2007-08-10
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actually, if you want to send that to congress people you may have to dumb it down to the level of a five year old and print it in crayon font.
---------- "Americans grew tired of being thought of as dumb by the rest of the world, so in 2008, they went to the polls and removed all doubt" ~~ unknown http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2x2W12A8Qow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4 2008-10-11 01:19:40
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Presence Posts: 500 Incept: 2007-08-24
Everywhere
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I would say Aja's finding indicates that all the big players agreed to the outcome ahead of time.
2008-10-11 01:36:10
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P9939068 Posts: 121 Incept: 2008-10-04
Singapore Sling
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It's not so much about the companies involved agreeing to the outcome ahead of time, but more because there is simply no other choice.
---------- Get your head outta there, CON-gress! 2008-10-11 04:07:43
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Eighty6thebs Posts: 644 Incept: 2007-06-26
It's contained to sub-prime!
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I think a nice clean example would help people understand this plan better. 99.9% hear "cramdown" and have no clue what that is including our congress critters. Also, we have this misconception that mark to mark accounting is to blame and short sellers are using that to push company’s values lower. I think if we could show a nice example for this people would better understand how the cramdown worked and how this would create transparency. As Gen has pointed out many times this is all about trust and transparency and not liquidity or rates. This entire process so far reminds me of a kid telling a lie. Each time they try and cover the lie, they make the story more unbelievable until they are finally forced to admit the truth and face up to the issue. The same exact thing is going on here. We’re trying to sweep this under the rug each week with more exotic and expensive programs and none address the trust issue. I think we have to bring transparency to this and accept our pain. Had we done that 6 months ago, this might be over already. I love this plan but I don’t think most people will understand what it’s attempting to do. ---------- "Sounds to me like you guys are a couple of bookies" - Billy Ray Valentine 2008-10-11 09:09:16
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Patentleathershoes Posts: 7132 Incept: 2007-09-13
Looking forward to PB&J time!
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Just faxed. Will send to my media list also.
2008-10-11 09:49:23
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Jstanley01 Posts: 2332 Incept: 2008-07-30
San Antonio, Texas
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The panic to save firms that are going belly up, and the resulting destruction of trust by the paranoids in government and their stick-saves, are forging the chain that -- attached to the concrete bricks of unfunded public liabilities and falling incomes -- is going to drag the middle class of the United States of America underwater permanently. How about a football analogy? Here's the GM team: They've got the ball, but they're backed up against their own one-yard-line, and it's 4th and ten. They try a Hail Mary. Incomplete. BUT WAIT! The refs blows their whistles and give them a 5th down ... then a 6th down ... then a 7th down. Then they threaten to move the ball to midfield and call it 1st and ten. What kind of a football game is that? Here are side-by-side alphabetical lists of companies that have made up the DJIA. In the left-hand column are the components as of September 2008, in the right-hand are the components as of October 1928, in bold are the companies on both lists: 3M___________________________Allied Chemical Alcoa________________________American Can American Express_____________American Smelting A.I.G._______________________American Sugar AT&T_________________________American Tobacco B Bank of America______________Atlantic Refining Boeing_______________________Bethlehem Steel Caterpillar__________________Chrysler Chevron Corporation__________General Electric Citigroup____________________General Motors Coca-Cola____________________General Railway Signal DuPont_______________________Goodrich ExxonMobil___________________International Harvester General Electric_____________International Nickel General Motors_______________Mack Truck Hewlett-Packard______________Nash Motors Home Depot___________________North American Intel________________________Paramount Publix IBM__________________________Postum Incorporated Johnson & Johnson____________Radio Corporation JPMorgan Chase_______________Sears Roebuck & Company McDonald's___________________Standard Oil (N.J.) Merck________________________Texas Company Microsoft____________________Texas Gulf Sulphur Pfizer_______________________Union Carbide Procter & Gamble_____________U.S. Steel United Technologies__________Victor Talking Machine Verizon______________________Westinghouse Electric Walmart______________________Woolworth Walt Disney__________________Wright Aeronautical That's two companies -- COUNT 'EM FOLKS, JUST TWO -- that have survived as distinct entities to be on both lists. And a good proportion of the companies from 1928 list NO LONGER EXIST AT ALL. (Sorry, but I didn't have time to do a side-by-side of BANKS.) Yet somehow, the U.S.A. emerged from the cataclysms of the Great Depression and World War II as the most powerful country the world has ever seen. How could that be? It's called CREATIVE DESTRUCTION. Over time -- as population increases, technology advances, wars are fought, and booms and busts come and go -- firms are BORN, they LIVE, and then they DIE. Just like people. Unless the government becomes God, there is NO WAY it can STOP THIS PROCESS. That's why one of our MAJOR PROBLEMS is the pencil-heads, pulling and pushing on the levers of government, who THINK and ACT as if they were demigods -- smart enough and powerful enough to decide WHO LIVES and WHO DIES. I CALL BULL****!!! (On Monday. With the Genesis plan in my hand. At my Congressman's office. Who, no doubt, is in town for his reelection campaign.) Source for DJIA info: http://www.djindexes.com/mdsidx/download.... ---------- Come on. It's just a ****ing casino. The markets have nothing to do with reality most of the times.. until they suddenly do... -- Peezdets Last modified:
2008-10-11 11:39:44 by jstanley01
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Patentleathershoes Posts: 7132 Incept: 2007-09-13
Looking forward to PB&J time!
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Sent to media list.
2008-10-11 10:33:44
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Sburnsinca Posts: 54 Incept: 2007-12-05 Suspended
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Karl, I have dutifully faxed and signed and called. I have written many times to my Senators, Congressman, and Whitehouse. I have called many times but I have written much more. However it is hard to support a F***ing 3 year old. Emotionally you act like a spoiled kid. You might be the smartest human on the face of the earth but you really need to grow up emotionally. Delete my ID, I won't need it again. 2008-10-11 10:37:57
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Arcone Posts: 2094 Incept: 2008-02-09
NYCville
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Sburnsinca, That's baseless and uncalled for. What are you a bitter former banker? 2008-10-11 10:50:45
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Jazumah Posts: 116 Incept: 2008-08-20 New York
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Sburnsinca, I disagree. You cannot talk to politicians in anti-septic corporate language. They are used to ignoring that. You have to aggravate them enough for them to remember what you said. Otherwise, nothing goes anywhere. 2008-10-11 10:53:53
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