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| User Info | Independent Truckers - Toast - THOUSANDS belly up in forum [Bankruptcies] | |||
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Steelpiston71 Posts: 1804 Incept: 2007-09-05 Michigan 
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krush, I think dog's purpose to his 4 points was your assertion that 'someone' could drive a truck and if the truckers went on strike, the positions would be filled. My guess is that dog thinks you are a bit cavalier in your assertions that anyone would be willing to drive a rig for a marginal profit. I know a trucker whose IQ is less than his body temp on most days, so I understand most people could perform the task. I think the notion that nature of the job, in it's totality, in appealing enough to fill a marked void, is disputable. ---------- "The Data Do Not Lie", Mr Mortgage (aka Hedgefundmanip), April 16th March Foreclosure Crisis Video. 2008-03-02 22:48:43
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Krush Posts: 5036 Incept: 2007-08-19 
WTF Island, Pacific
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Excuse me if I have faith in something called capitalism. If there is money to be made, somebody will fill the position. If there are no truckers to move goods (lack of supply) but plenty of demand for goods to move (demand) then somebody will do the hauling. I've met stupid truckers and I've met very intelligent truckers that are extremely smart businessmen. I'm not saying all truckers are stupid. ---------- "The gap of real GDP and the fake GDP is already as wide as a slut gang banged by 1000 people. I can't imagin people will say: gee, this slut is tighter than expected."--Mliu_01 2008-03-03 00:08:07
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Thewad Posts: 146 Incept: 2007-06-26 Ontario Canada
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I have really GOOD idea. The truckers all go on strike and someone fills in. How about something from the past like railroads!!! They would probably be cheaper and by the time the truckers realized that they were losing, it would be too late. The postal system in Canada tried striking back in the late 80's and early 90's and all they did was open consumers to UPS and FEDEX and they never looked back. Such an event could kill the long distance trucking industry. 2008-03-03 15:24:22
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Emb145 Posts: 8182 Incept: 2007-08-25 
Orlando, Florida
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I love how Krush is still in fantasy land, (college) telling people how the world works. I remember when I had all the answers and just KNEW everything, and had it all figured out. Krush, Unfettered, 'free' capitalism ****s the middle class. Our truck drivers will soon have to compete with Mexican drivers whose companies don't provide medical, have their drivers on the road 25 out of 30 days, little or not enforcement of rest requirements, constant threat of initmidation, etc...you get the picture. Right now, Walmart is lobbying Congress to allow their drivers to be on duty for up to 16 hours without a rest period. You want your wife and child to be on a dark, rainsoaked highway with a ****ed off, sleepy Walmart trucker next to her? A guy who has to let his cigarette burn down to between his fingers so he can stay awake? You think your cushy ME job is gonna be safe from the 'freedom' of unfettered capitalism? ****ing guess again, punk. There are THOUSAND UPON THOUSANDS of Chinese and Indians who are dying to take your job. Of course, you are probably arrogant enough to think that you are better than them and that your job can't be outsourced:  ---------- It's the age of hobos: Prepare to teach your children how to grift. Last modified:
2008-03-04 02:38:54 by emb145
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Krush Posts: 5036 Incept: 2007-08-19
WTF Island, Pacific
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Emb, DOT sets the maximum number of hours a trucker can drive. Owner/operators have no boss...don't you think they already try to drive as much as possible (and cook their books to be "legal")? I've already had the outsourcing engineering jobs discussion. Many types of engineering jobs will be (if they haven't already been) outsourced. So is a fact of life. However, I've started a thread or two on said topic and there has been extensive research that says the stated number of Chindia "engineers" being produced is a FARCE. Additionally, as many practicing engineers on this forum have commented, most of them are just downright useless in the real world. I doubt my planed "expertise" will be outsourced. Do you see your auto mechanic's job being outsourced? If you are in a merit based profession, outsourcing is a non-event. Ask Genesis this. PS: I'm not in fantasy land...I've spent much time in the "real world". ---------- "The gap of real GDP and the fake GDP is already as wide as a slut gang banged by 1000 people. I can't imagin people will say: gee, this slut is tighter than expected."--Mliu_01 2008-03-04 10:53:39
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Emb145 Posts: 8182 Incept: 2007-08-25
Orlando, Florida
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Quote:If you are in a merit based profession, outsourcing is a non-event. Ask Genesis this. What if you have decided not to enter a merit-based profession? Should I just walk around going: "Oh, tough **** for me. I get to compete with Captain Allah Akbar from BFE airlines and like a starting salary of $18,500/year. Guess I should have become a trader or a mechanical engineer. Sucks to be me, but that's what I get for being stupid enough to go into this profession...Go Unfettered Free Market Capitalism!" Don't people in such jobs deserve at least a fair opportunity to make a decent living? Who is gonna drive your groceries? Who flies you to Ft. Myers to see grandma? Who drives the train that delivers building materials, or offloads your cargo ship, or flies military contracts to deliver troops and supplies to our foward operating bases? Etc... Should people in those professions be subjected to global "wage arbitrage", having to compete with workers from countries who **** on their laborers more than the US? One of the reasons the US has been the envy of the rest of the planet was the workers, who made this country go, were respected. Just because I am not in a merit-based profession, does that mean I shouldn't be able to enjoy a decent quality of life? I should be subjected to some sort of permanent underclass status...there just to serve the pigmen? ---------- It's the age of hobos: Prepare to teach your children how to grift. Last modified:
2008-03-04 12:41:56 by emb145
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Krush Posts: 5036 Incept: 2007-08-19
WTF Island, Pacific
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Emb, do you not like free markets? Have you ever hired a contractor to do something for you? If you go to hire a plumber, do you hire the cheapest one? I'm sorry, but nobody forces a person into a profession. If the pay is ****ty and enough people stop going into the profession (and I see this possibly happening for pilots) then there will be a shortage of workers. This will create higher pay and more incentive for people to go into said profession. ---------- "The gap of real GDP and the fake GDP is already as wide as a slut gang banged by 1000 people. I can't imagin people will say: gee, this slut is tighter than expected."--Mliu_01 2008-03-04 12:41:55
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Emb145 Posts: 8182 Incept: 2007-08-25
Orlando, Florida
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Quote:If you go to hire a plumber, do you hire the cheapest one? Yes I do. Me. Quote:
And yes, we will try to force higher wages and better benefits. And then people like you will come on to boards like this and bitch and moan, and **** and whine about those ******ned greedy pilots who only work 75 hours/month...completely distorting the realities to serve their own needs. In your case it would be paying more than $119 to fly to Cancun for Spring Break. Those ******ned pilot unions: Always trying to make sure their pilots are paid fairly, have good work rules (read: "rest") a fair retirement fund that isn't ****d in BK court, decent quality of life. And about those safety rules the pilots have been fighting for for 70+ years. Don't they know that all that extra safety equipment costs money? ---------- It's the age of hobos: Prepare to teach your children how to grift. 2008-03-04 12:50:59
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Emb145 Posts: 8182 Incept: 2007-08-25
Orlando, Florida
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To add another point: Why should a truck driver have to endure 1,10, 15 years of ****ty pay/lifestyle until things "turn around", if they ever do? To answer your question: Yes, I do believe in capitalism. I wish we had it here in the USA. Fascism is where corporations and government get together to **** all over the masses. ---------- It's the age of hobos: Prepare to teach your children how to grift. Last modified:
2008-03-04 12:57:11 by emb145
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Inthemoney Posts: 396 Incept: 2007-11-10 away from my bus
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I have a Class B... You cannot teach someone to drive a Class A "with decent mirrors" in three days. Sorry. The biggest problems with maneuvering a Class A is the "last mile" at the endpoints. That's where the men&women are separated from the boyz&galz. As a Class B, I have had the dubious pleasure of sitting through 20 minute traffic jams caused by Class A's who don't know how to turn or back up their tractor-trailer. NO THANKS. Some people say it is hard to get a Class A. Some people think that regulation in states with no regulators works. I say  Very recently in Florida is was possible to get your Class A through your trucking school, rather than through a state instructor. When they later tested these so-called CDL drivers... well... you get the picture. (Hmm, conflict of interest much?) Right now you have to go through the state again. We'll see how long that lasts. Probably if trucker pay bottoms out and the recession ends and it trends up again, 'bidness intress' (business interests, in good ole boy) will start moaning like the little bitches they are and they'll go loosy-goosey on CDL testing again. Okay, I'm back...had to replace my keyboard batteries. In case anyone here is unaware, RR's have been going gangbusters in the last few years. Better management, IMO, since the late 1990's, plus the ramp up in oil prices in the last three years. Too bad your truck driving friends did not going into railroading. Engineer pay is WAY better, YES, you have to work crazy hours, but the work rules are very strict and the pension system is one of the best. (No falsified logs there--CSX guy claimed, and of course we take this with a grain of salt because in general CSX guys are liars, that the reason you run into commuter trains in corridors like VRE/Fred delayed by freight is that when they hit the max hours for their crew, that train is DEAD, so the dispatchers do what they have to to roll that freight train to a hole (like a siding) so that traffic can keep flowing, rather than stop the whole RR.) Someone above complained about tolls. I have some background in transportation engineering which includes pavements, roadbuilding, etc, so I feel compelled to address this. Damage to the road has been shown in careful studies to correlate to the 4.5th power of the axle weight. Okay? So thousands of cars do the damage of one single truck. Thus, a per axle charge of $5 to a $.75 charge for a car is actually overcharging the car in terms of real maintenance costs incurred. In most of the interstate highway system, tolls can't be incurred at all. You only pay in fuel taxes, which again undercharge the biggest offenders. HIGHWAY SYSTEM IS A GIGANTIC SUBSIDY FOR FREIGHT TRUCKS. Freight RR's are unsubsidized today (yes, they were subsidized, I mean they received "tax incentives" in the mid-19th cent.), even have to pay above and beyond to satisfy safety concerns and regulatory requirements. MEANWHILE, AIR AND HWY TRANSPO DO NOT PAY THEIR TRUE COSTS. Look, I guess people like their subsidized air travel, but let's not kid ourselves. Diesel costs went up and it's all whiney-whiney boo boo. Meanwhile, trucks destroy our "strategic" highways with impunity, and congress is always coming around building new ones. The RR's would KILL to get subsidies like that. Any industry would. LONG HAUL (OTR) TRUCKING IS A HISTORICAL, FINANCIAL, AND PHYSICAL ANOMALY. ---------- "I don't know if it would have been zero, two, or maybe four dollars." -- Ben Bernanke on BSC shareholder value in BK. Last modified:
2008-03-04 14:33:19 by inthemoney
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Steelpiston71 Posts: 1804 Incept: 2007-09-05 Michigan
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good post itm.
---------- "The Data Do Not Lie", Mr Mortgage (aka Hedgefundmanip), April 16th March Foreclosure Crisis Video. 2008-03-04 15:37:12
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Krush Posts: 5036 Incept: 2007-08-19
WTF Island, Pacific
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inthemoney, are you a railroad engineer? My good friend runs NS in the Southwest VA area. I've gone along a short trip with him as a pusher. My teaching a person to do class A had the caveat that they weren't an idiot. It's almost easier to back a 53 foot trailer than it is to back a short boat trailer. Trucking compared to RR is so much of a joke that it's disgusting. The problem is that RR has given up lots of the infrastructure in the past 50 years (ever heard of Rails to Trails?). My only beef with RR is when they pull eminent domain BS on people for their land. ---------- "The gap of real GDP and the fake GDP is already as wide as a slut gang banged by 1000 people. I can't imagin people will say: gee, this slut is tighter than expected."--Mliu_01 2008-03-04 16:01:08
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Npi Posts: 1062 Incept: 2008-02-17
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Emb you are this thread's Febreze...... keep it up. We do need to rebuild the RRs though, because we're losing our airlines and we'll need to be able to "take the twain" as the little kids say. ---------- NPI: Nationalist, Protectionist, Isolationist. Fan #1, LCruiser Fan Club 2008-03-04 16:44:36
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Zanni-baby Posts: 922 Incept: 2007-11-09
the Valley
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Guy, In addition to trucking, the overall effect to any transport vehicle- will be in melt-down mode. Take Alaska, for example, where the demographics are such that most cities--and all the small towns in the out-back are reliant on float-planes-or boats for deliveries of mail, groceries, just about everything under the sun that is not subsistence hunting or gathering. Some of the smaller villages would about end if they were not designated Tribal allotments. I can't even place a quantifiable effect that this may have on those communities that are not Tribal-but are there by the mere fact that they have existed to support the fishing,crab, touristas industrys--without these factors no other inflow--other then to suggest "ghost town".... ---------- As for all the Banksters-It's all said in one word: GOUT! 2008-03-05 23:52:38
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Bozonian Posts: 13051 Incept: 2007-09-01
PFT - Pure F'n Tin
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It's all about supply and demand. You get paid based on the demand/supply ratio for your class of skills. People think they are "worth" a certain amount but that depends on how many of you there are and the demand for those skills. That's why you marry someone in a different industry. While your industry is suffering, they can bring home the dough. When their's is suffering, you bring it home. ---------- If deficits don't matter, then the Federal Government can borrow the money it needs and stop taxing the citizens. Everything I write is my opinion and not to be considered proven fact. Nothing I write should be considered financial advice. 2008-03-06 00:03:30
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Leraconteur Posts: 7189 Incept: 2007-12-03
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"As the cost of diesel doubled over the last four years, his take-home pay has plummeted, from $50,000 to $11,000 last year. He's literally burning money; he spent $64,000 on diesel in the last eight months. Since he canceled his satellite radio, he's on citizens band radio constantly (handle: Instigator) talking about what needs to change so truckers like him can survive." {September 7, 2007 WASHINGTON – A controversial, long-delayed program to allow Mexican trucks to roam freely throughout the United States took effect last night after the U.S. Transportation Department granted the final approval.} 1) Mexico and the USA last year reached an agreement allowing more MX truckers to cross in to the USA to deliver loads. So look for them to work the wages our longhaulers cannot. 2) The additional cost of shipping is being absorbed by the truckers, not the customer. Yet. Inflation suppressed at the cost of more lost highwage jobs. 3) Increased energy costs affecting the businessman not the customer, putting a huge crunch into the standard of living of yet another blue collar job / business that used to pay well. What used to pay $100k+ with overtime and long hauls and long hours now pays below minimum wage. 2008-03-06 00:06:15
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Krush Posts: 5036 Incept: 2007-08-19
WTF Island, Pacific
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Quote:People think they are "worth" a certain amount but that depends on how many of you there are and the demand for those skills. +1 ---------- "The gap of real GDP and the fake GDP is already as wide as a slut gang banged by 1000 people. I can't imagin people will say: gee, this slut is tighter than expected."--Mliu_01 2008-03-06 00:14:30
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Guydaley Posts: 10361 Incept: 2007-07-10
Missouri & Wyoming
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Great article on the CRUSHING cost of diesel CLEVELAND — Ricardo Caraballo was having a familiar American experience at the filling station the other day, groaning as the pump clicked up, up, up. By the time he finished it read $505, and his tank was only half full. Peter Wynn Thompson for The New York Times »A few years ago, “$500 would have kept me rolling for two weeks,” he said. “Now, I’ll be lucky to make it three days.” Mr. Caraballo is a trucker, and instead of gasoline he was buying 143 gallons of diesel. While the price of gasoline may be on the verge of setting another record, diesel is already there. According to AAA, the motor club, the average nationwide diesel price has set records on 18 of the past 19 days, including Monday, when it hit $3.83 a gallon. In the nation’s tool and die plants, in the driver’s seats of farm tractors and in the cabs of the long-haul semis that ply America’s highways, people are feeling the pain. “It’s killing us,” said Chad Beachler, co-owner of Beachler Trucking, which operates nine trucks in Loudonville, Ohio. “Every day, I come in here and wonder if I have enough money to buy fuel.” Both diesel and gasoline prices had lagged behind the big increase in the price of oil, as slack wintertime demand helped to suppress increases at the pump. But now both fuels are rising rapidly. Gasoline was selling for a nationwide average of nearly $3.23 a gallon on Monday, a half-penny shy of the record set last May. Oil closed up sharply on Monday to hit a record, $107.90 a barrel, in trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange. Four states — New York, California, Pennsylvania and Vermont — reported average diesel prices above $4 a gallon on Monday. “That really is unprecedented,” said Tom Kloza, publisher and chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service, which compiles data for AAA. Stunned by the high prices, businesses are trying to cut fuel consumption any way they can. Farmers are buying more fuel-efficient equipment. Truckers are putting off maintenance and packing lunches. Transport companies of all types are cutting what little fat remains in an industry that subsists on lean margins even when fuel is cheap. “In this industry, if you’re making 4 percent profits, you’re held in high esteem,” said Jim O’Neal, chairman of the Truckload Carriers Association. “Now we’re looking at the dreaded stagflation: a soft economy and increasing prices on everything, especially fuel.” Some causes of the run-up are seasonal, said Ron Planting, an economist at the American Petroleum Institute. For instance, home heating oil and diesel are close cousins, and when heating-oil demand goes up in the winter, the prices of both fuels often rise. But other reasons are relatively new. The rising popularity of diesel vehicles in Europe increases demand for the fuel and decreases demand for gasoline, allowing European refiners to export their surplus to the United States, which helps stabilize gasoline prices here, Mr. Planting said. Diesel use is on the rise in fast-growing countries like India and China, Mr. Kloza said. And even in the United States, demand for diesel and heating oil grew 1.5 percent in 2007, compared with 0.4 percent for gasoline, Mr. Planting said. Americans burned about 142 billion gallons of gasoline and about 65 billion gallons of diesel and heating oil in 2007, according to data from the Energy Information Administration. Diesel is mostly burned by businesses to power machinery or haul freight, Mr. Planting said. Since few of the functions dependent on diesel are discretionary, companies must pay the higher prices to remain in business. “In the U.S., gasoline is having its little run,” Mr. Kloza said. “But diesel is much more of a global market. All the signs say that the world’s appetite for diesel is only going up.” Rising fuel costs come at a difficult time for America’s transport companies, already hit by slumps in new home construction and consumer spending. Truck tonnage fell 1.5 percent in 2007, to just under 11 billion tons, said Bob Costello, chief economist of the American Trucking Association. Rising diesel costs will almost certainly lead to higher consumer prices and more bankruptcies, he said. “We’re already seeing more trucking companies fail, and it’s only going to get worse,” Mr. Costello said. When Tony Jarachovic bought his white Kenworth semi in 1998, diesel cost 88 cents a gallon. Today the truck’s odometer reads 1.1 million miles. It needs new front tires, which together cost $900, and a major overhaul, which will cost $8,500. Spending $1,500 a week on fuel has depleted his maintenance budget, however. Now he avoids driving from his home base in Lodi, Ohio, into Pennsylvania because the hills strain his motor. Mr. Jarachovic used to buy Krispy Kreme doughnuts at truck stops, and treat his family to dinner at Applebee’s every Sunday. Now his wife cooks extra spaghetti so he can eat leftovers on the road. “I have no expenses left to cut,” Mr. Jarachovic said. balance of article here: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/11/busine.... ---------- 2/17/09 = Hogzilla bill was signed = THE POINT OF NO RETURN = Cheers to the Reset, LONG LIVE THE UNDERGROUND ECONOMY! STARVE the BEAST! Adopt a J6P. 2008-03-11 11:37:36
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Steelpiston71 Posts: 1804 Incept: 2007-09-05 Michigan
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And another for today, March 11th, 2008 http://knoxnews.com/news/2008/mar/11/ris.... Rising diesel costs may sideline even more truckers Many have parked rigs, which could trickle down to consumers By VICKI LEE PARKER, Raleigh News & Observer Tuesday, March 11, 2008 RALEIGH, N.C. - Harold E. Funderburk has noticed more and more big rigs parked on the side of the road with "for sale" signs in their windows. "They are just giving it up, selling their stuff and going to work for some big (trucking) company," the Raleigh, N.C. trucker said. The high price of regular gasoline usually gets all the attention, but the price of diesel has been steadily climbing. This week, diesel nationally hit a record $3.68 a gallon. If prices keep climbing, Funderburk said, he will park his semi, too. "I'm going to make one more trip," Funderburk, 58, said this week. "When I get back, I'll make my decision." The average tractor-trailer gets just 5 to 6 miles per gallon, and, at current prices, it can cost more than $700 to fill the empty tanks on most long-haul trucks. That's too much for many truckers to keep hauling goods. Todd Spencer, executive vice president of the Owner-Operator Independent Drivers Association in Grain Valley, Mo., estimates as much as 10 percent of the association's 161,293 members have parked their trucks. "Right now they are likely spending $70,000 to $100,000 a year just for fuel," Spencer said. "We are talking about losing half of their net income for the year. They simply cannot survive." The ramifications go far beyond the trucking industry. With most of this country's goods transported by truck, fewer drivers could lead to strained supplies while higher fuel costs can be passed along to consumers who are already paying more for food and other goods. The high fuel cost is a relatively new problem for trucking companies. Until a few years ago, diesel fuel - a byproduct of petroleum - was generally less expensive than regular gas. But government mandates to make diesel fuel cleaner and higher oil prices have steadily pushed up the price of diesel. The higher costs coupled with a slowing economy have been hard on the entire trucking industry, but especially so on small companies and independent drivers. And it doesn't look as if there is going to be price relief any time soon, said Tom Crosby, an American Automobile Association spokesman. Crosby said that the nation's already-strained oil supply has been worsened by a temporary refinery shutdown in Texas and minor glitches at other production sites The weak economy isn't helping truckers, either. With the downturn in the housing market, there are fewer construction supplies to ship. And consumers are starting to put the brakes on spending, which means less cargo to move across the country. Fewer shipments have led to longer waits for a load to drive back home. Layovers also add to their travel costs since drivers, who commonly sleep in their cabs, have to run their truck engines throughout the night to keep warm. Tom V. Lancaster, an independent trucker from Cumberland, Md., said he usually tries to haul close to home in case he has to wait for a load. But on a recent weekday, he was at a truck stop in Dunn, N.C., near Interstate 40 and I-95, preparing for an overnight stay. He used the down time to do some light maintenance on his truck - one way he saves money - while he waited to hear whether he'd get another load. He had to get one that would cover the $315 in gas he figured it would cost to spend the night and make the drive. Some truckers have invested in auxiliary power units to use at night to heat their trucks. But Lancaster hasn't been able to afford one; they range in price from $1,500 to $7,000. With fewer jobs, some small companies are finding it hard to keep their drivers busy. Kerry Ramsey, owner of K&M Ramsey Trucking in Fayetteville, N.C., parked one of his five trucks when a driver left. He doesn't plan to replace him until business picks up. "I've got five families depending on me for income," Ramsey said. "You try to save as much as you can because the trucking expenses have gone plumb crazy." ---------- "The Data Do Not Lie", Mr Mortgage (aka Hedgefundmanip), April 16th March Foreclosure Crisis Video. 2008-03-11 14:49:14
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Krush Posts: 5036 Incept: 2007-08-19
WTF Island, Pacific
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Hmm, the railroad guys ain't complaining.
---------- "The gap of real GDP and the fake GDP is already as wide as a slut gang banged by 1000 people. I can't imagin people will say: gee, this slut is tighter than expected."--Mliu_01 2008-03-11 14:57:33
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Npi Posts: 1062 Incept: 2008-02-17
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Krush maybe you should get your engineering degree - the train-driving kind.
---------- NPI: Nationalist, Protectionist, Isolationist. Fan #1, LCruiser Fan Club 2008-03-11 16:52:54
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Krush Posts: 5036 Incept: 2007-08-19
WTF Island, Pacific
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Got a good friend that is an engineer (train kind). Went on a short ride with him. It's good pay, but he's gone a lot. He also is around 30 and is "maxed out" in his pay. Remember my problems with unions and lack of merit based pay? ---------- "The gap of real GDP and the fake GDP is already as wide as a slut gang banged by 1000 people. I can't imagin people will say: gee, this slut is tighter than expected."--Mliu_01 2008-03-11 18:40:45
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Beechdriver Posts: 874 Incept: 2007-10-17
The prosperous South
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Quote: "Hmm, the railroad guys ain't complaining." Maybe they could bring back steam locos - seeing as we have a boatload of coal in this country ---------- elephants and asses - screwing the masses Tim Geithner - "He's as honest as a Latin American politician on the eve of devaluation." Last modified:
2008-03-12 07:11:59 by beechdriver
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Npi Posts: 1062 Incept: 2008-02-17
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Beechdriver if you're fairly young, for sure you'll see it. Krush you Krack us up, you're against everyone else having a union, but want a union "Like the united auto workers" for yourself. ---------- NPI: Nationalist, Protectionist, Isolationist. Fan #1, LCruiser Fan Club 2008-03-11 22:24:11
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Dogfarm Posts: 1211 Incept: 2007-11-29
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I bought my newphew a share of Union Pacific 3 years ago for $60 bucks (actual share in a frame). Freaking thing is worth $119 bucks today and it pays a dividend. Little late to the party but perhaps railroads are worth going long? 2008-03-14 13:29:04
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